Episode 096 - Ashe Gordon

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recorded May 06, 2018
published May 31, 2018

Violist and holistic educator, Ashe has played all over the world with a number orchestras and ensembles, and has collaborated with many living composers including Thomas Adès, Steve Reich, and Jeffrey Mumford to name just a few.

She has become a voice for social change through her work as Artistic Director of Castle of our Skins – a Boston-based concert and educational series devoted to celebrating Black Artistry through music and is currently working with the Cross Cultural Collective a Black arts collaborative that elevates, celebrates, and promotes African diasporic arts and their creators in Boston and beyond.

Photo credit: Joe Wallace Photography

Unknown Speaker 1:31

Hello, it's Chuck from above the basement Boston music and conversation violist and holistic educator ash Gordon is a very busy woman. She's played all over the world with a number of orchestras and ensembles and has collaborated with many living composers, including Thomas Edison, Steve Reich, and Jeffrey Mumford. to name just a few. She has become a voice for social change through her work as artistic director of castle of our skins, a Boston based content and educational series devoted to celebrating black artistry through music and is currently working with the cross cultural collective, a black arts collaborative that elevates, celebrates and promotes African diasporic arts and their creators in Boston and beyond. So here is our conversation with ash Gordon, the quarter that would sail table in Concord, Massachusetts.

Unknown Speaker 2:23

Have you done a podcast before?

Unknown Speaker 2:25

Yes, with a friend who is in Canada, which I know is super huge, but somewhere in Canada, and we did over the phone A while back we actually met in Germany and then we're on separate parts of the North America. Yeah. And yeah, connected that way.

Ronnie 2:39

Okay. And you trained in Germany for a little while, right? That's how you met her.

Unknown Speaker 2:43

Yes, I spent a year and a half in Frankfurt, which is a beautiful city for traveling.

Unknown Speaker 2:48

I never been to Germany. So my list Yeah, that was

Ronnie 2:52

your training for one of your masters. I

Unknown Speaker 2:54

did a master's in contemporary music which is as you can imagine, incredibly lucrative

Unknown Speaker 3:01

rolling in the dough with the new music

Ronnie 3:03

bit especially contemporary, modern and

Unknown Speaker 3:06

viola. I mean, this is all the best worlds here.

Ronnie 3:09

Yeah, everything right. When you think of viola, you do think of a cash cow. Just a lot of money. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 3:15

we actually were at an event last night. Do you know Charles What's his last name?

Ronnie 3:19

Yang Charles Yang. He was on from the top of years ago violin though.

Unknown Speaker 3:26

That's a real instrument. now.

Unknown Speaker 3:27

I'll forgive him.

Ronnie 3:29

so small

Unknown Speaker 3:30

it is it does feel like a toy. For me the age of reason was in college when I switched to Viola.

Unknown Speaker 3:35

So you were a violinist before I

Unknown Speaker 3:37

was I was one of those.

Unknown Speaker 3:39

There are other types of other kinds like you can

Unknown Speaker 3:42

do that. Most people I know. They started on violin. And it's a rarity. I find for those that have actually started on Viola. So my my group of four six year old seven year old girls who are starting on Viola Yeah, I feel like I am sharing a new generation.

Unknown Speaker 3:58

Starting on Viola

Unknown Speaker 4:00

starting on viola,

Ronnie 4:01

how would you know it's their new it's their first instrument? Yeah. How would they know any different? It's interesting. It's a cultural experiment in and of itself.

Unknown Speaker 4:07

Me being a moron. Can you kind of explain the difference between the violin and viola?

Unknown Speaker 4:12

So I often say Viola is bigger and better. Yeah. And that's really all you need to know about it. But it is, if you think of it like the voice, if you think of a choir, the soprano is higher, that would be more like the violin, you have the Alto, which is maybe the creamy kind of Middle Voice, which would be like the viola tenor would be like the cello, and then the bass is obviously the double bass, the instrument is bigger, it's played about the same way. So underneath your chin, but it's a little bit bigger. And it sounds a little bit deeper. A Viola going to science shouldn't be about 17 inches long, which is me mine is, is maybe about 16 inches, so it should be 17 or 17 to 21 if I forget which number but incredibly large. Yeah, and chiropractic visit waiting to happen. Really,

Unknown Speaker 4:54

if you try to play it, is it physically harder to play?

Unknown Speaker 4:57

It is I mean, the internet is bigger, so it weighs more. And then the repertoire, especially a lot of the romantic repertoire is it's hefty, you're the peanut butter and jelly of your sandwich or the you know, the glue that holds things together. And the instrument being bigger just has a lot more kind of oddities physically to have to

Ronnie 5:16

overcome in order to play. What is the violin of the peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

Unknown Speaker 5:20

Oh, is it like?

Unknown Speaker 5:23

It would be like the crust? Yeah, the outer everyone hears

Unknown Speaker 5:27

got an edge

Unknown Speaker 5:28

it has. High it's it's noticeable. It's totally visible. But you have to like open up the sandwich in order to get the

Ronnie 5:37

middle range. It's almost like the anchor, it can be the anchor of a chamber. Yes,

Unknown Speaker 5:42

yes, I think it was a probably a violist that said this. But Jamie Music Group is only as good as its violist. It sounds like something if you're lyst would say but I think it's very true. I like it.

Unknown Speaker 5:50

I'm gonna go with it. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 5:51

and the sense that we really are the glue

Ronnie 5:56

from a very bad violist. That was like my chamber group was maybe I didn't get

Unknown Speaker 6:03

with him. But why did you decide to switch from the violent to the viola,

Unknown Speaker 6:06

it first was practical, had to do with money. I got a job one summer in college. It was a light opera company out in Ohio. And I had to play both violin and viola. And I think I got the gig because I could play both and I had access to both. And it turned out that I had to play mostly Viola. And prior to that, I would just sort of, you know, whatever. It's the bad cousin of the violin. I shunned it and I would pick it up every once in a while but I actually had to practice and spend time with it that summer and realize you know, this is pretty cool

Ronnie 6:37

spoke to you. Yeah, be a commodity to I think we're sort of joking before about Viola means money. But you would think that if you're a good violist, you can be in demand. Yeah, you play it to the left. Always remember we talked with a flutist and we said you should do you know, I love the I love this when this happens. Yeah. So I met own in Lithuania. I just like to say that because this is the only time I've ever been in Lithuania. I like

Unknown Speaker 7:03

saying una una de.

Ronnie 7:05

You do it took him about four months. So what's up saying with emails back and forth to own and be like, Okay, can you just say it with phone now? I'm an expert. Anyway, so own is great. And you've played with her?

Unknown Speaker 7:16

I have. It's been Wow, it's been a while. But yeah, we played together.

Ronnie 7:20

That's so cool. So we had talked to her about the flutist will play to the right other any flute is that? Is it ever been a thing to play to the left to remember? And then she tried to left the flute for us? Is that anything you've encountered?

Unknown Speaker 7:34

I have not,

Unknown Speaker 7:35

isn't it just a matter of being left here? It wouldn't

Ronnie 7:37

do any kids can they learn starting like at six years old with their hand on the right, they may

Unknown Speaker 7:41

be could the instrument is set up in such a way that a modern instrument has a place for your jock and have a little pillow, all the rest. And that's normally set up. If the instrument if you're looking at the instrument, it's set up on the left side of the instrument. So that would fit over your left shoulder and underneath your chin. So you would actually have to not only just take that chin rest off, but actually molded make something that would fit on the right side.

Unknown Speaker 8:06

But they don't make don't make lefty violas or violins

Ronnie 8:09

because when Hendrix flipped it over, he just put the strings on upside. That's all they need to do with 100. He played upside down, right? He just flipped it over with what's the guitar over they change the strings.

Unknown Speaker 8:18

I don't even know if he did that.

Ronnie 8:19

Anyway. So I don't know. I thought that but I'm glad that after all that strange conversation about left and right that we found out that you know, honor, yes. Yeah. But thanks for coming here because we met you so to speak in the improper Bostonian, you didn't meet me, but I met you. Okay. And I read the article and influencing folks in the city, in culture in the arts. But that's great that we could finally Connect, we have talked sense with many people. And we've actually, we've gone into the Boston Children's chorus and met Ben and Anthony, I don't know if you know those guys, because they really speak the similar language, I think in reading about what you've accomplished in your career and your young career and just how it's really remarkable to see the people that are transcending music into culture. I saw a talk that you gave, it was at,

Unknown Speaker 9:10

it was at UMass UMass, which for me, was a pleasant surprise, I certainly was not expecting that. And I remember there was a room full of adults, everyone in suits, basically. And I was presenting on inspiring cultural curiosity through education, and had them sing and clap with me. And doing basically my interactive educational work that I do with elementary school students.

Ronnie 9:32

Is that what inspired you to continue with adult population after that? Or have you been doing it

Unknown Speaker 9:39

prior? I think it's all been in my life.

Ronnie 9:42

You've been doing that education? Yes,

Unknown Speaker 9:43

if I had a mission statement as an artist, which definitely relates to my professional work as an educator, but my mission statement, as an artist is to inspire people to be curious, it doesn't matter your age, I am kind of a silly person. So I work best with kids. I've been finding but I I very much enjoy for my own self edification for me to do research, and then to impart that research and knowledge I'm learning on. Basically anyone who is interested in learning and listening.

Unknown Speaker 10:09

And your bio you mentioned is that you are a big believer in holistic teaching. Mm hmm. What is what is that?

Unknown Speaker 10:16

Yeah. For me, as an educator, I teach Viola primarily, yes, you have to learn your your skills and play these pieces, and things like that. So the technique aside, I very much treat my role as a mentor to every student, for instance, a student of mine who had very low self esteem, which was very obvious. So of course, getting up and performing was challenging for him. So every lesson there was always something about building up his character. Being a proud fearless standing tall, yes, we get to music, but let's talk about you and make sure that you are setting and reaching attainable goals. So we talked about eating an apple and biting an apple really digesting it and feeling that nourishment in your body. So the same sense with trying to learn anything new, that's challenging, recognizing your small successes and allowing that to really influence your whole entire being. So it was amazing for me a year and a half later for him to not only just be standing up taller, but approaching me with questions as opposed to me having to kind of coax things out of him and just seeing his confidence blossom as a human being period. And yes, okay, you play viola, but as a human being, how can I mentor you? It's mindfulness,

Ronnie 11:19

the apple Yes, and being there and being present, and focus. So you find what resonates with each kid.

Unknown Speaker 11:26

I do. And I've been fortunate to teach in a program called the intensive community program. It's basically a school within the Boston symphony orchestras. For me, it's it has been great to be able to see the outcomes of a week to week interaction with a child and certainly with the family and that kind of development over time. So I've been fortunate to be able to work with students who are interested in learning and hopefully learning more about themselves

Ronnie 11:51

I brought up BCC they will with song bring up what's going on in their lives at home and you know, that they get into a lot of intense issues, of course, is very verbal conversations about happy things, not so happy things in their in their family. And but you can see that in order to get the results for that expression and creativity of the kids have to feel it.

Unknown Speaker 12:13

That organization is really quite amazing. I had the pleasure of performing for their sort of 15th big celebration, they had a performance at the ICA with a little buck, oh, cool pop dancer, and choreographer, sir. It was pretty amazing. They had a collaboration with little little Bach in his creative dance organization and a composer who created a piece about child trafficking. And for them to have to deal I mean, middle schoolers High School, it's a have to have to deal and understand what this is and then perform and be in in the ICA be in the space, it was a bell, I was misty eyed by the end of that. And that's one of many concerts that they have going on this month in the next few weeks, all with really real real life issues, that they're that they're tackling and addressing.

Unknown Speaker 12:56

When we talk to the kids, it was one of the first things they brought up. It wasn't necessarily the first about the music and the singing. And now they love saying it was about them having conversations about whatever's going on. And it was an important part of it, and with each other and with each other and like just stuff that they wouldn't necessarily bring up at home. You know, the conversation may have started at the BCC, but they've continued it outside of it. Right. And and to have music be a part of that. That's the whole music almost just guys.

Ronnie 13:22

Yeah, it's almost gonna tell us about three see, is it Triple C?

Unknown Speaker 13:26

Yes. The cross cultural collective. Yeah, that has been a kind of new, totally 100% new and spontaneous completely the antithesis of how I operate, which is planning things meticulously, like a year and a half out and then I go do follow my plan. But in December, The Boston Globe had beautiful and arresting six part series on racism in Boston, right where I spotlight but one of the articles was specifically about the seaport and just fact after fact, I mean, for me, I grew up in Rochester and being a transplant into Boston. I don't work Rochester New York. Yes. Yeah. Really? Well, I'm from Webster. So yeah, so I am not a native Bostonian. So a lot of the historical deep seated issues that those who have lived in Boston for their lives and the gentrification that they're seeing, for me and a little bit naive, entering into the scene. With her when I read this series, and specifically the seaport it really struck me in a very visceral way. And I'm on a number of newsletters, one of which was from the city about space, if you're interested in spaces as either a low level work situation as an artist or real estate kind of endeavor. And there was a request for proposals that went out by the city, specifically in the seaport for 13,000 foot space that is deemed to be a civic or cultural center in in a basically a condo. So instead of putting a restaurant or something like this could be a museum, it could be some kind of artistic center. So when I saw that in relationship, specifically to the seaport article that the spotlight team put out, I put a post out on a Facebook group called Boston's black and brown. And I said, you know, is anyone anyone interested in creating a black art space and the seaport something along those lines, and then flurry of text messages and Facebook said, Okay, let's do this, and just very cosmically, it just developed. And there is right now, a cohort of six of us, myself included, and we range from artists and activists in the performance, visual and health and wellness arts, dancers, yoga instructors, who are doing a lot of the sort of face work for this, but we represent really over 60 artists now at this point, and have gained well over 700 supporters and letters of support and petition signers and future patrons and donors and things like this. I don't quite understand all of the numbers, but evidently, it's $1 per square foot. Okay. I think it's a good deal.

Ronnie 15:49

It's pretty good. Yeah, for

Unknown Speaker 15:52

us to certainly meet the city where it is putting it I think it's money, where its mouth is and creating access for culture, creating space for culture, creating equity and for trying to keep artists in Boston so that we don't end up you know, going to New York, that kind of thing and trying to bring arts as a, you know, a cultural movement where we can actually affect change.

Unknown Speaker 17:11

There was just a big to do in Cambridge, there was like a lot of rehearsal space. That was the last people were evicted. They were kind of petitioning the city to try and get it back. And I don't know what I don't know what it came. What came out of that. It was just in the news recently, but it's refreshing to hear that this is happening.

Ronnie 17:28

We everybody hears a lot of negative stuff about the arts in general. But I think this is a this is a unique thing, because it's the arts. There's also African American. Yeah. Is that the thread is that the glue?

Unknown Speaker 17:40

Yeah, centered around African diasporic art. So thinking of certainly Africa as the continent and then were through slavery, people of African descent have landed, so the Caribbean's and certainly Europe and America's etc.

Ronnie 17:51

The where I was going with that, too. Is that a couple things? I know you're Jamaican? I yeah. I didn't know the Rochester part. But I knew Jackie. Okay, I don't know a lot of Rochester in Jamaicans but it's an African thread. But is it also culturally in the sense that it's different communities and different cultures? And Oh, sure, Caribbean? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Haiti,

Unknown Speaker 18:13

from membership to the art that would be displayed to workshops and lectures that would be given by a culturally responsive art practitioners on a variety of things. I mean, absolutely, you know, visual arts, what we proposed, again, that 13,000 square feet over two floors, and the first floor would have a 150, seats, performance space, everything about the visuals behind the space is in reference to a circle. So in the sense that from sankofa from past, present and future that they would that we have continuous thread, that there is a continual thread between all of these cultures. So cross cultural, in the sense that we are many cultures. And then we have this connective tissue between us. So the performance space is basically a large oval, and it has curtains that can kind of fold through and it has a lot of effort, futuristic textiles and elements to it. But we would have as a fixture, a performance space, which could again, be for performing arts can be for dance, for interactive multimedia, and for film screenings, and things like this, a culturally sensitive cafe, there would be gallery spaces for visual arts, we have again, healing, especially in the black community, healing is needed. So we would have an entire healing space, if you can imagine, meditation, meditation space, I'm thinking maybe it's in the matrix in the future world where you have these pods basically that are suspended, where people can, yeah, so we would have these kinds of pods basically, as well as rooms that would be against Securitas, where you can just sort of crawl into and this could be your, your meditation space, this could be a small, intimate class, or it can be a one on one sort of massage type of space. So healing is is also very important, certainly in the black community. And in in this sort of conversation. That's really interesting. I've never heard that concept used within a art type play like us. I mean, it makes sense, though, right? healing is a huge

Unknown Speaker 20:09

part of music and art.

Unknown Speaker 20:10

No, I know that's it's an extension so that the music referencing the BCC before using the music as a way to create conversations, which can be particularly sensitive, but it can hopefully create a more calm balance between opposites, for instance, and using music and using Performing Arts using dance to be able to do the same as a way of healing as a way of reconciliation as a way of dialogue. And the same for an actual physical meditation space, treating your body as a place that needs intake artistically. And it also just needs some time needs a space.

Unknown Speaker 20:43

Well, it's the same has the our holistic approach to teaching each kid

Ronnie 20:47

that pod seems pretty awesome. Yeah, I want to go and I want to pod. Hey, we are in a pod right now. We are in a pod pod cast? Yeah. Clever, clever. Well, you know,

Unknown Speaker 21:00

good luck. I hope that that works out.

Ronnie 21:02

Thank you. What's your role in this?

Unknown Speaker 21:04

There's a core leadership team of six of what should the space actually materialize. And we as a collective would share administrative responsibilities and financial responsibilities, as well as a practicing artist. So definitely music and as an educator, my workshops as well. And another organization that I lead a constant educational series Kesler skins good, right. Yeah. Take part.

Ronnie 21:28

Yeah. Those those trucks next question

Unknown Speaker 21:31

actually wasn't. Oh, but that's okay.

Ronnie 21:32

They're going to talk castle. I want to talk castle,

Unknown Speaker 21:34

we can talk castle.

Ronnie 21:35

No, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 21:37

That wasn't my question. So why don't you go ahead, and you can run with it. Well,

Unknown Speaker 21:42

this is how it works here. We just kind of wing it.

Ronnie 21:46

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 21:47

Castle of our skins, right? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 21:48

Yeah, we're in our fifth season, and the artistic director to program just about eight or 10 events. This month alone, we're in our fifth season. And it's been a joy ride. Largely It started as sort of selfish. I want to learn more, myself and my co founder, Anthony green, who oddly enough lives in the Netherlands. So that's an interesting dynamic that we have. The name I love talking about it came from a comes from I should say, a Nikki Giovanni poem poem for Nina that basically says we are imprisoned in the castle of our skins. And some of us that said, You know what, if that's going to be the situation, I might as well treat my skin like a palace and fill it with beautiful things and just adorn it as though it's this gorgeous tapestry, you know, which is everything about what we try to do. So in celebration of black culture, black history, through music, as well as other artistic disciplines. But on the side of celebration, which is not necessarily something that's synonymous with black culture, especially in this country. It started the summer of 2013. Anthony, who I already mentioned, we met at NEC when we were studying together, we wanted a way to still stay connected while we were not living in the same space. When I came to Boston, Around this time, I had just moved from Germany could not find a job walking a dog or in a coffee shop or something. So I had all this time, what better way to spend time then to nerd out in the library and just do some research is what I ended up doing. And so between Anthony and I wanted to sort of just have a concert that featured us, Anthony, a black composer, I'm a black violist. And so maybe there's other black musicians in Boston, maybe there's other black composers that for us, it was very kind of a scavenger hunt to try to find. And so going to the library ended up coming up with spreadsheet up to spreadsheet and 10 different concert programs and a whole bunch of names of musicians and composers, which started the idea of maybe this can be something more than just kind of a casual, sort of innocent one off and it's now since grown into what it is today, which is

Ronnie 23:42

which is part of celebrity series.

Unknown Speaker 23:43

It is Yeah, actually we have celebrity series has their neighborhood arts program. And we did a project in December with two Roxbury based string ensembles. One was city strings united, which is a cello ensemble, there's maybe like 2012, if you can imagine hold cello orchestra, largely Black and Brown students and the Boston city citywide orchestra, which buddy human runs Nvidia, Israel runs the other organization, the city strings. So that was a collaboration with their students and with a castle of our skins, which is a flexible instrumentation, socially conscious artists I call them and since we have musicians and artists and spoken word and dancers and things, but for that program, we had a string quartet, Anthony, the co founder, and also a composer in residence wrote a piece for String Quartet and large ensemble that we got to perform together with them. You're busy? I yeah, but it feels good. It's always gratifying work.

Unknown Speaker 24:39

You mentioned composers. Yes. And you seem to work with a lot of composers, you got your degree, a master's in contemporary music is that was that what was called?

Unknown Speaker 24:47

Yes, when I went to Germany, for instance, that was, as you mentioned, to get that degree in country music, and that was working with one of Europe's foremost new music ensemble, and a lot of it is European bass and kind of maybe cerebral music, some of the music that we would play would be just a score a piece of paper that might have dots and kind of dashes and you interpret kind of a thing. Instead of playing Viola with a nice, beautiful, long melody that you could kind of hum you hear like lots of just scratches and kind of

Unknown Speaker 25:20

wrenches and stuff. And it's lots of space, lots of silence. And

Unknown Speaker 25:27

for me what was what it was and is really exciting about contemporary classical music, is that I feel like I'm a sound engineer, and that I am largely for most times getting a piece of music that is either never been performed before. So I am literally birthing the music or it has been performed only a handful of times if recorded at all. So again, I feel like I have an immediacy and need that there is a reason why I am hearing that piece of music is is in my hands, as opposed to a Beethoven or a classic Mozart or something which may people have gone through that have their stamp, but I feel like I can give in a very meaningful way life to something that hasn't met that hasn't been heard before. And I do feel like I am crafting sound and I am able to play with space play with time, and shape things in such a way with sound and with color, not necessarily melody that's hummable or like a nice catchy beat, but really play with sound as though I'm a painter.

Unknown Speaker 27:09

You're not just doing an interpretation of something that's been done a million times by a million other musicians, right? This is a brand new door. There's no preconceived notion of what it's supposed to be, which

Unknown Speaker 27:20

is, which is so liberating. Yeah. Often in the musicians that I come across who are interested in exploring and interpreting contemporary classical music. They're also really interested in Baroque music, which, yes, has rules. But sometimes those rules are contradictory. So at the end of the day, it's your best, most informed judgment in interpreting that style of music, which also is very liberating. Everything kind of in the middle, has its stamp really well defined and marked, and that has enough air time. So let me kind of pull on the extremes

Ronnie 27:51

during those spaces. What's the connection of interpretation and improvisation was just semantics. When you interpret something it's in the tambor the style, the rhythm in a sense, which is an interpretation and of itself, correct. But improvisation sometimes can be right can be completely different notes that were not written on the page.

Unknown Speaker 28:09

Yes. So I would not consider myself an improviser. But if given a skeleton, and that skeleton may be as rigid as measures, and there's a quarter note in a thrust, and all these kinds of things that you would see quite often in classical music, I still feel like I am able to add nuance to that. So maybe that's my own interpretation that I add to it. As opposed to seeing I have your above the basement sticker here. And if I were to ask to play a piece based off of this, this would be me. You can interpret you know, interpreting, and then obviously, I have no kind of guidelines, but I'm just improvising something based off of I think

Ronnie 28:44

that's a perfect, perfect thing for us to do at the end of this conversation. We want an interpretation of the above the basement sticker is what Chuck has been going for, for his whole career. And it really, but

Unknown Speaker 28:55

I would like the idea that

Ronnie 28:57

well, because the micro improvisation or interpretive however you want to call it is very much like a painter paints what you've discussed in this new 13,000 square foot place. And I like how you use the word birth, because there's new things that have not existed, then you can literally give birth to that.

Unknown Speaker 29:13

But I think what's also really different is that you're working with a composer themselves, right? You're working directly with it. Yes. So what's the what's the collaboration? Like? I mean, do they give you license to do it? Is it is it a conversation that you have with them when you're doing it or

Unknown Speaker 29:27

does it work each one is different. For instance, also with Castleford skins, we have a concert may 26, which is an ode to black feminism and black women. And we've commissioned a New York based composer Jessica maze to write a piece for countertenor cello and piano. And that between her and I was conversation about the logistical things, okay, the instruments that we need and the length of time fitting into nature of the program. So used to setting poetry by a black woman order and basic things like this, when she actually had the freedom of the time to kind of craft something that it was a little bit of a back and forth between her and the musicians and myself about, okay, well, this is great. Can we maybe add this or tweak this something like this, what I find the most engaging not so much in the writing process, but in the rehearsal process with a composer and to be able to sit down and be influenced by literally the sounds and how the sounds and colors and timbers merge and going to be combative against one another and then try to problem solve if we actually do this instead? And how would I change this and tweak things and kind of build and crafts together in the rehearsal process, I think is, is where a lot of that interplay between the composer and the musician

Unknown Speaker 30:33

happens. And do you find that the composer for the most part is open to this kind of thing?

Unknown Speaker 30:38

Yeah, I mean, it depends, again, on the

Unknown Speaker 30:41

person.

Unknown Speaker 30:43

And also on the relationship. Yeah. So for me, as artistic director, I say and do what I want. Which is a liberating experience. If it were in an orchestra situation, then you know, you have to bite your tongue, which is kind of why I don't play an artist. But yeah, it very much, I think, depends on the situation of the people involved.

Unknown Speaker 31:03

I really like the idea of going in there with a piece that was written with the actual composer, working together all those little kind of things that you may add, or enhance, or whatever you're doing with that. I mean, you don't know you gonna end up with really,

Unknown Speaker 31:17

yeah, and for me, I mean, this this year, maybe this is too much information. But my sort of New Year's resolution was to invest in myself. And I've actually done that physically with personal trainer and dietitian acceptable blah, blah. But artistic or holistic. Yes, very holistic, even more realistic. Yes, is about my artistry. So investing in my musicianship, I would not say that I'm a composer, but I'm interested in composition. We're not saying an improviser. But I'm interested in kind of learning that skill. So for me trying to also tap into those sides, which I wouldn't necessarily categorize myself with working with a composer, I feel like I'm vicariously a composer that I'm able to shape and interpret and changing tweak along with him as well. And then also explore some ideas as improviser. What

Ronnie 32:00

when you're working on yourself, do you use that same type of Apple eating exercise with the six year old or seven year old?

Unknown Speaker 32:07

You know, I wish? I wish that was translatable? It really shouldn't be?

Ronnie 32:12

Because it sounds like that's what you're saying, in a sense is that you're getting inward and getting in the moment, I would imagine you can't teach Well, you can't perform well, you can't do something really well, unless you really understand yourself and take care of yourself.

Unknown Speaker 32:25

Yes. And I think the understanding of oneself and taking care is is a 24 seven job, I am still very much in the process of learning for myself. And that kind of continual challenge is exciting. And I really love the failures because that that's where I learned a lot. And then I'm able to were so

Ronnie 32:43

successful. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 32:44

Yeah, I failed a lot.

Ronnie 32:46

Look at Chuck. I mean, Chuck fails all a huge

Unknown Speaker 32:48

failure, because successfully.

Ronnie 32:51

Like you go into Viola and podcasting for the money. That's right. So but success is not about money. It really is not. And I'd like to point that out. Chuck, my success is certainly not based

Unknown Speaker 33:01

upon money.

Ronnie 33:02

Speaking of success with kids and with teaching, what I found really cool was the little histories. I mean, a lot of what you do is cool, but the nine people that you bring to the forefront some we've all heard of a guy named brock obama. Okay, we've heard of George Washington Carver, but there was five analysts I hadn't heard of. Yeah, what I really think is fascinating to the nine people that you bring to the forefront with music. You're doing it with rhythm, too. And I'd like to hear more about Yeah, who decided to do that?

Unknown Speaker 33:32

Yeah, I have to give such a shout out to Anthony green. Yeah, co founder of cash lovers games, again, composer in residence.

Ronnie 33:39

He wrote the words to them, right?

Unknown Speaker 33:40

He its original poetry that he wrote as well as music again, this first year kind of innocent year. Let's do one concert and one educational piece. And one educational piece is what you're referring to is a little history. And so Anthony picked the nine figures ranging from Phillis Wheatley to brock obama. There's madam CJ Walker, as you mentioned and planned among a variety of entrepreneurs and musicians and writers, right? That are told through this story between he and I, it was very much a back and forth about Okay, well if we do, for instance, Phillis Wheatley, who was brought around to Boston in the 1700s, he wrote in terms of music it's for solo narrating violist, which I didn't know. I had the capability of doing. So I play something that sounds a little bit like Bach, in the sense that it's antiquated, like in the 1700s, when she was brought to Boston Harbor, and then speak basically a rhyming poem about her life. And then with the children, usually it's children say, Okay, what did you hear? What did you learn and what's so important about Phyllis Wheatley? She learned Latin and English and Italian I think, or German, maybe one of these other languages. And

Ronnie 34:48

this is after you perform after a three minute or two minute thing? Yes. And you and you say what did you take out of

Unknown Speaker 34:54

what did you take out of it? So it's a it's a 60 minute interactive educational workshop really geared towards upper elementary students. And again, we do tell the lives and the stories of nine different figures of from black history through original poetry, original music and interactive elements. So the music that I sing and perform and the activity the engagements from the students all to try to help reinforce the significance of each figure and the bravery the heroism in people that yes, you know, of like brock obama, but also madam CJ Walker, who may be a name that you don't know. But she was the first I haven't figured out if it's the first African American or first woman period to be a self made millionaire in the early 1900s, selling hair green that she created, which is still around today,

Ronnie 35:37

no matter who it is that you're bringing these these amazing people or concepts. I mean, the fact using rhythm and music is really scientifically makes sense. I don't know if it was based on neuroscience, what you guys were trying to do, but the actual prosody of the rhythm goes into the brain in a way that makes people retain that information better than if you read it in a book. That's another way that hip hop and rhyme can actually resonate with people. And remember these lyrics,

Unknown Speaker 36:05

a little history, as you mentioned, we have another interactive workshop called Ellis gets Little lamb, which teaches kids scat singing and Ella Fitzgerald through a piece that Valerie capers African American composer wrote. And then we have another one play songs in games, which is about Caribbean and African American children songs and game songs ranging from ham bone to miss Merrimack that kind of thing down the road. And my vision of Kessler skins is to be able to create sequential learning curriculum based semester based classes, coursework that we can certainly use. And then we can help plant the seeds elsewhere so that other people are able to use as well.

Ronnie 36:42

It's preaching to the choir that there's no funds for a lot of this stuff, not no funds, but there's not a lot of funding. So if you can study this, is that something you guys have thought about working with psychologists or other scientists that can look at the changes in the kids, how they learn what they retain their math or English? You know, the reason why I say it is that in medicine, and in recovery and you know, rehabilitation with, with music, you have to prove something's going to work for you to get more and more funding. But if you can show that it really changes them in some way. That's not the music. That's

Unknown Speaker 37:16

interesting. I haven't thought about the psychology of proving on that kind of level. We do have certainly testimonials from participants and educators.

Ronnie 37:25

Yeah, right. So the anecdotal stuff is anecdotal.

Unknown Speaker 37:27

Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I mean, that would be something to keep in mind of, as we do extended trial runs, to have people involved. That said, I think they're already in terms of arts period, and certainly music, lots of information, lots of statistics, lots of studies and right information already out there about the advantages behind incorporating learning and music and learning and rhythm and learning and

Ronnie 37:50

right. So you can use that as the basis

Unknown Speaker 37:52

we can use that as the basis and this being a part of that umbrella of holistic education and musical education.

Ronnie 37:59

Because you're not a helping with learning, but you're helping with cross cultural understanding of the other kids. It's very powerful. This, it's there's a lot going on there.

Unknown Speaker 38:08

Yeah, maybe naively but for me, if I think that I can foster curiosity in black culture, then that would inspire someone to to look in what do I know about my culture? And then what do I know about your culture, which maybe this is idealistic, but then we'd all be more empathetic people think it's a great place and my favorite is the Angela Davis.

Unknown Speaker 38:36

That sounds much better than a violin.

Unknown Speaker 38:45

Always for a good cause.

Unknown Speaker 38:49

Great woman, yes, she was

Unknown Speaker 38:53

an activist in this country.

Unknown Speaker 38:57

Working towards equality.

Unknown Speaker 39:01

Even in this modern day.

Unknown Speaker 39:05

There are things you cannot say.

Unknown Speaker 39:08

But this woman Yes, she fights.

Unknown Speaker 39:12

battle over civil rights.

Unknown Speaker 39:16

She studied in France in Germany,

Unknown Speaker 39:20

graduated with degrees.

Unknown Speaker 39:24

She was jailed for no reason.

Unknown Speaker 39:27

She didn't steal or commit treason.

Unknown Speaker 39:31

She loves her life, so do not fret.

Unknown Speaker 39:35

someone whom you can't forget.

Unknown Speaker 39:44

Unknown Speaker 40:25

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai