Episode 142 - Lori McKenna

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recorded August 04, 2019
published September 19, 2019

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Chuck and guest host Kristina Latino sat with Lori before her recent show celebrating the 15th anniversary of her album Return To Bittertown at Cary Memorial Hall in Lexington, MA.

The Stoughton, MA native is a multi grammy-winning singer songwriter and the first woman ever to win the Country Music Association’s Song of the Year two years running as well as Academy of Country Music’s first female Songwriter of the Year. In addition to her own songs, she has written for Faith Hill, Keith Urban, Little Big Town and Tim McGraw to name just a few.

And just this past week we were all able to watch her on the Americana Music Honors and Awards show where she, well as former ATB guest Mark Erelli, were each nominated for Song of the Year.

Along with her incredible songwriting chops and beautiful voice, we discovered that Lori is truly one of the most down to earth and nicest person you could ever meet.

Photos courtesy of Lauren Sell

Show Notes

Chuck Clough 0:00 Hello, it's Chuck from Above the Basement - Boston Music and Conversation. It has been a very quiet summer for ATB as Ronnie and I have been working on some major changes and additions to the program. Nothing we can announce yet, but we will let you know once things become official and what better way to hit autumn running than to visit with the amazing Lori McKenna with special guest host and corner scape founder Kristina Latino.

We sat with Lori before her recent show celebrating the 15th anniversary of her album return to bitter town at Carrie Memorial Hall in Lexington, Massachusetts, Stoughton mass native Lori McKenna is a multi Grammy winning singer songwriter and the first woman ever to win the Country Music Association Song of the Year two years running as well as Academy of Country music's first female Songwriter of the Year. In addition to her own songs she has written for Faith Hill, Keith Urban Little Big Town and Tim McGraw to name just a few. And just this past week, we were all able to watch her on the Americana music honors in a way show where she as well as former HDB guest Mark Erelli were each nominated for Song of the Year along with her incredible songwriting chops and beautiful voice, I discovered that Lori is truly one of the most down to earth, nicest people you could ever meet. So here is our conversation with Lori McKenna recorded a Cary Memorial Hall in Lexington, Massachusetts.

Lori McKenna 1:21 - The show's been going good. Yeah, it's been weird and good. Like good. Weird, you know? Yeah. Cuz it's, like learn

Kristina Latino 1:34 - inherently fairly nostalgic.

Lori McKenna 1:36 Yeah, yeah, exactly. which is my favorite. Yeah. Personal nostalgia is different than general. Yeah. Or family like, you know, to me, like generalizing it and writing it in a song is one thing and then like, oh, what was I thinking when I did that? It's a whole other.

Chuck Clough 1:53 This is the first time playing in this building. Right? No, I did a UMB members concert here a couple years ago. So it was before they did the MRI. they redid the whole thing.

Lori McKenna 2:04 I think it was like this. I think it was done. I think it was I swear I was like it might have been last year but it

Chuck Clough 2:09 was last year. Yeah. Okay.

Lori McKenna 2:11 Yeah, it's a great room.

Chuck Clough 2:13 Yeah, that's nice.

Kristina Latino 2:14 I've never been in here before, but it is really beautiful. Is

Lori McKenna 2:16 this supposed to be like a meeting hall? Or was this like setup for art?

Chuck Clough 2:20 You know, I think I read what it used to be and remember what this series it tells you tells the history. But you know, we're in Lexington. So I'm sure as some kind of revolutionary

Lori McKenna 2:31 I should have. I should read more plaques.

Kristina Latino 2:35 But also, aren't you a historian like by trade?

Chuck Clough 2:38 Well, technically, she's the historian. Historian, just those who read the plaques. That's really the basic.

Lori McKenna So my husband's a historian, as I were saying, because he's a plaque reader. Okay.

Chuck Clough She has graduated from Northeastern with her masters.

Lori McKenna 2:57 Congratulations. And I'm

Chuck Clough 2:59 about to go into Northeastern for my masters. That's

Lori McKenna 3:01 great. What is your what is

Chuck Clough 3:03 history? Oh, ok. So there, it's all true. It's all coming full circle now. So we all like nostalgia.

Kristina Latino 3:13 me more in song form and song for

Chuck Clough 3:15 Yes. But thank you for joining us.

Lori McKenna 3:17 Thank you.

Chuck Clough 3:18 You've been busy.

Lori McKenna A little bit, but not like I think I've I get like little spurts of business. But I think I've been really lucky balancing lately. Like, April, I kind of messed up that month. And it's a little busy, but because a lot of times you you know, you know how it is like you booked things and then other things come that you didn't we weren't expecting that. So much of the unexpected and what we do, but lately it's been pretty good.

Chuck Clough So she's the she's the Lori McKenna expert.

Kristina Latino 3:49 True fan over here.

Chuck Clough 3:50

Not that I'm not a true fan. Yeah, but she knows her stuff. Well, but she also cheats because she knows she manages Mark Erelli. Yes. Although you did. Lyle is playing with you right now. So the first time I saw him, I just moved back up to Boston from New York. And he was playing with with Ryan Montbleau. Cool. blew me away.

Lori McKenna 4:17 Yeah. It was wild. These are the first shows I've ever played. With Lyle and so great. Yeah. So great. Yeah, it's just such a different thing. It's like whenever you have one of your main guys, not there. It's so it changes everything. Yeah. But it's been really fun.

Chuck Clough 4:34 It's always a breath of fresh air. Not to diss the guy used to be with you. But it's nice to have someone.

Lori McKenna 4:39 Yeah, it's just a different breath. It's just it's just a totally different beast in a lot of ways. Yeah. But it's funny, because these are old songs. Like if we were doing the regular set, and it wasn't mark, it would be strange. But for the most part, it's 10 11, 12 songs that I haven't played in 15 years. Yeah. So it's kind of like this new band with Lyle.

Kristina Latino 5:01 So what inspired the return to better town tour, I went to your passing December show last year and loved that it kind of like dipped into all these different periods and records that you put out in the past. But it was cool to see that this one was going to be like a real reexamination of better town. So what kind of guy? Yes, I did to do that.

Lori McKenna 5:21 I think this came about with my manager Beth Laird We had a conversation and I was talking about I realized that bitter time was 15 years old because my son David turned 15 years old. And bitter town, I think came out May 10. And he came out May 13. So I knew that they It was 15 years old. And we were just chatting

Chuck Clough 5:38 Did he come out on vinyl?

Lori McKenna 5:39 I might have to try that. But yeah, so I knew that the record, you know, was 15 years old. And that's really the record that changed everything for me. And that I also knew that the first record had probably been 20. Because counting backwards, it's like oh, so the first record probably was 20. But there was no way I was going to go that didn't take that deep. But the show that you saw it passing where we went we did like two songs from Yeah, almost each album. That was Mark Erelli and I driving home from like, three hours from a show somewhere and just talking about like, what can we do different at the past games? Yes, year I loved and just like do a little bit of each record. And he just you know, Mark, he's just so he's like, let's discuss and like we went through each record and like what songs do you still identify with? What songs you still like? What songs do you think you want to play again. And so then when I talked to Beth about better town being 15 years old, and in Nashville, which is like my second home now, they only know me from that record if they if they knew me before, before girl crush or whatever. They only know me from that record. So that's kind of where my career started in Nashua was better town. So I was like, well, I'll just do the whole we'll just do the whole thing. And she's like, let's re record a couple of the songs. And so we went in the studio with with Luke Laird who produced Stealing Kisses and Bible Song for me again, and that's where we get the seven inch vinyl. Yeah, like only for these shows and one pressing and like, let's just do it. And we went in and listening to back to that record. Like every that Nashville band that we recorded with were like, they're like you made this record 15 years ago, like the production's pretty killer really is Yeah. And when I went back and sort of Listen, I was like, Man Laurin interest knows what's up like he did a good job. It was Lauren and Kevin Berry and me and a little bit of Megan Toohey and a little bit of like Mark came in saying, but for the most part I was so scared to be in the studio I saw Loren last night He's like, remember we did that? Because you hate being in the studio? Like I still hate being in the studio.

Kristina Latino 7:49 Really?

Lori McKenna 7:50 Hundred percent.

Chuck Clough 7:51 Really? I love being in the studio.

Lori McKenna 7:53 I know most of my friends say the same thing. They love it. I hate it.

Chuck Clough 7:57 Is it thatwhat do you hate about it? I

Lori McKenna 7:59 I hate the whole thing I hate like listening to the same song. I can't play to a click track.

Chuck Clough 8:05 Yeah, that's time Yeah,

Lori McKenna 8:06 but i've you know, since grown past that, like the last few records I've made since Massachusetts have been like I just, that's my first thing is I just can't use a click track. So the last few records of member Dave Cobb and we just play live, which is what we did in Massachusetts with Mark and then I'm okay, I'm a little bit better. In working with Dave Cobb. What he does is kind of just like you're just playing a live show, you know, and that I can stand a little bit but I still can't stand just picking everything apart and putting it back together. And I'm just like, Oh, I'm so I guess so. I'm like, maybe it's not a good song.

Kristina Latino Yeah, it's funny to hear you say that you feel that way sometimes because I feel like this is going to be a weird comparison. But when I was in college, I sang in an acapella group briefly and we went into the studio and I felt like all of the fun that I had like singing with my friends kind of got sucked out of it for that moment as I was just like, thinking you're like, you're examining everything you do and no, like a very critical way like do I want to put this out there for forever as opposed to just enjoying the music?

Chuck Clough 9:05 I mean, I don't put it above playing live certainly. Yeah, no, yeah, but I like the experience. The experimental part of it. deconstructing the song sometimes sometimes you just find something new with it, but I mean, I but I get it I mean, I understand why people don't like it. I mean, especially with quick track is can be a nightmare.

Lori McKenna 9:23 Yeah, for me, it's not like oh, this will be in the world forever. Is it not perfect, cuz I'm far from a perfectionist. I actually don't like things being perfect. Yeah. Do they ever are in music usually supposed to be involved but my favorite part of the process is writing. Like even my friends that I write with, they'll be like, well, let's get this down. And then like let's see it will throw click up we'll just play the good and I'm like, Can we just write another song? I just ideas the part I like best is the writing so that's the part if it doesn't work in the studio just naturally or organically I'm like is something must be wrong, you know,

Chuck Clough 9:59 while the bands that I like the most are bands that play well live in fact, like, like a band like Wilco. The huge Wilco fan I don't listen to any of their studio albums. Everything I listened to his life. I just love bands who can play their instruments and play them well and play them live.

Kristina Latino 10:18 good combo of like, already, but still just like good to listen to.

Chuck Clough 10:22 Yeah. Did I answer the question? Okay, sorry. I know I also like I like the the the Massachusetts town sign that you had Bittertown.

Lori McKenna 10:33 Yeah. That was from back in the day, my sister in law, Nancy did a bunch of pictures around better town. And that was, she's passed away. And I have my brother gave me like this old k drive, you know, this old hard drive with, with all those pictures on and that was on there that she's Photoshop. It really is. Like, I think my writing is a little bit like a map stamp on it. Anyway, like sort of things I've learned about myself that I didn't realize everybody in the world didn't call it a pocketbook. like things like that. I've learned through songs like about the way I saying like just starting out. Like it's like, oh, you don't pronounce yours at all. And I now I have to like, like, I sort of fake a southern accent when I'm singing because otherwise I was it wasn't coming through and all those things came came back to me re re learning all this stuff. I can tell like when I learned a new chord, like because it's all over a song. I'm like, Oh, I learned to be seven that month. And that's why the song like completely has its head a rat rat wrapped around me the major seven, okay?

Chuck Clough 11:35 That's really interesting, you kind of deconstructs it can deconstruct the album, especially Are you playing it? It seems to be a play. Now,

Lori McKenna 11:42 the reason why not we were gonna do that originally. And the reason that I can't really do that is because we flipped a couple ballads because there was a couple, there's like a lower one towards the end of the record. And, and then we this is the so this will be the fifth show tonight. And we kind of have more it over. We started in DC. And it didn't seem like most of the audience knew what we were doing. Like they didn't know the songs because of course, it's farther away from here. So there was a little bit of like, let's throw some old, some new stuff in there too. And all that. So it's changed each night. It's changing a little bit.

Chuck Clough 12:18 So you know, it's not just necessarily just the album tonight.

Lori McKenna 12:21 No there's 13 songs on bitter town and we're doing 11 I think, okay, yeah. I couldn't believe there was 13 songs on that record. When I went back after I said, the whole record. I'm like, Oh, my God, who puts 13 songs in a record, like, I had to look this up online.

Teach me a whole song and rehearse. I'm like, I don't know what I was doing. But I know I did something.

Chuck Clough 12:42 So you really had to relearn the songs.

Lori McKenna 12:44 Because like I learned tricks along the way. I'm not that great of a player. So I'll learn like just Laurie isms of how to get through something or the way I wrote it is like a weird quarter over weird note or whatever. Yeah. And my musical friends know what it is. But I didn't do it on purpose. You know, man,

Kristina Latino 13:04 then we'll figure it out. I can't figure out what I was doing. So you'll see you'll see tonight if you're saying for the show, you'll see like Paul Kohansky is like stepping up to me quite often. Because he's his energy is changing. Just show me where to move and things like that. And the songs and I know them a little bit now. It took it took a little bit. It took a little bit. Yeah. Can we just do the songs? I know.

Lori McKenna 13:34 you're mentioning that your favorite part is writing. And the tree came out this year, right? Last year long ago. Last year? Yeah. Crazy. Time flies.

Kristina Latino 13:43 Yeah, it really does.And I feel like I think of Bittertown certainly is like, you know, as you were saying a moment that really changed a lot of things for you. And then I think of the Bird and the Rifle is another one of those moments, perhaps. Yeah, so I'm a big country music fan. And I feel like I get a lot of fun. When I know know that you were like a co writer on a song that I hear and love on the radio. And I'm also just fan of your music. So I'm wondering kind of how you feel about balancing your co writing stuff and your own stuff. Like you have, like, are you working on a new project for yourself right now? Or? I don't know, whatever you want to?

Lori McKenna 14:15

Yeah, so I'm gonna go, I'll probably record and I think October, we're going in cold a little bit, and we'll record again. And so that will be like next year project. But like I said, obviously, the writing is the thing that happens always, you know, and I don't write every day, but I write a ton. And, and I co write a ton and I write not as much as I used to write so but I write several songs a month, probably But so yeah, and it's like, I do love it. You know what I mean? And it does make sense that I would have sort of issues sometimes of what is mine and what is but I've never, I don't know why but I've never had that problem. The only thing that came close was humbling in the way that that worked out because of my record cycle and Tim's now I'm not going to ever get into McGraw's way as an artist. And he truly like does not Kate like he would, you know, tell me to do whatever I wanted. But that that timing worked out perfectly, because I knew I was cutting it with Dave Cobb. And I knew that record will come out. Just as that single was ending. Yeah. And it was like literally perfect timing. Wow,

Chuck Clough 15:26 that's gonna be one of my questions. You have you ever written a song meant for somebody else? and been like, you know, this is I like this one a lot. I want to keep this for myself.

Lori McKenna 15:35 Yeah, it hasn't really happened in that way. There's been like from Massachusetts, we cut sober for that record from Massachusetts as a band for that period of time, we played it a bunch live, but Little Big Town was going to single that song, we had enough songs anyway. So I was like, let's just let this one off the record, and we won't put it on and then maybe we'll bonus track it, you don't mean it. But when all that came to be it was like, Oh, really need to do that. Now, you know, to me, like it's like, I get sick of the song or I get sick of playing it or whatever. But the times it where it has been as this, like, I don't feel that precious about songs where I think oh, they're just mine. And I always like, I'm just happy to be on a song or happy to have written a song that other people might like. So I always feel like, and I've heard other people say this, like, I know that back in the day songs were that's what they were for. It was always the intention to be interpreted by all different people. Or people would write them as communities and sing them, you know, and all different voices. And so I've never really felt like Oh, I can't share this. Like it's I've never turned in a song to my publisher and said, Keep this just for me.

Kristina Latino 16:40 Wow, that's cool.

Lori McKenna 16:41 Maybe that's a bad sign. And sometimes those things will overlap. Like when we go in now we'll watch and especially if I've co written if I wrote about myself, it doesn't matter. But if it's a co write, I do want to be careful of my co writers and I don't want to step on their toes, right? Like Haley who we're playing with tonight. I wrote happy people with her. And so put it down in the tree. Little little big sound, put it up first, I put it on the tree and she's coming out with a record. It's on that like, I love that. Like we all have a different version of that song.

Lori McKenna 17:09 That's so cool. Yeah, the life cycle of kind of dovetails well into what you're doing tonight. Also, it's like revisiting and reinterpreting. Perhaps some of the songs that you wrote longer ago. Yeah, it is true, though. Like I feel like music in a lot of ways. Do you know Dietrich Strauss. Yes, he's a good friend of mine. And I feel like He always talks about how, like, historically, music was more social, like people come over and play on porches. And everyone had a very personal casual relationship with music that seems like people don't necessarily have as often anymore. He has said that to me a few times, but like really sticks with me. And I feel like I think about that a lot, especially in relationship to co writing just, it is this kind of different form of shared musical experience?

Chuck Clough 17:52 Just a few times before that I might have been when I met you for the Sub Rosa. Whereas Chris Delmhorst, Dietrich Strauss, Zach Hickman. Yeah. And they get together and they all play to their songs, and they just kind of share that moment. I really love it. It's so very, I mean, they do it at lizard lounge. And that's a very homey, everyone's kind of surrounding him. It seems to be on the stage as well.

Lori McKenna 18:17 Yeah. Like, basement. Yeah.

Kristina Latino 18:22 Time passes differently.

Lori McKenna 18:26 But it is true. And Boston's very community driven I think in that way. I mean, maybe like more so than any other city I've ever known other than Nashville. There's things like that in Nashville. So my experience with music on that level, like, especially being part of the Boston music scene, is all of those guys that you mentioned and women that you mentioned, they all and Mark included and everyone that's playing in this band tonight, they all are part of each other's music in that way. They all can share their songs with one another. Love that that way and I can share my song with you because you know how to play the guitar, bass. Guitar your song to me, I mean, like, that's a good song. But I don't know necessarily how to jump in. I don't know how to harmonize. I'm not great at playing along unless I know this, I have to learn it first. I just can't jump up somewhere and do something with somebody. Unless I really know it and ever hearse it when I started in the Boston community and started doing open mics and all that that was one of the first thing I noticed how cool that is that they all do that. And I have no ability to do that. And so for a little bit I tried and at the alcohol learn and like What's wrong with me? Why do I not play well with others? What's my problem here? When this record came out, I had never co written a song I find a home in Nashville because of this record, because Faith Hill cut some songs off and I get a publishing deal. And my publishers like you should co write songs like I've never done that before. But that's where I found my community. Not that I don't love the people here and what they do, but I really like I really honor but I know that I'm not driven in that way. But as far as writing songs, that's where I could help, perhaps rose pollen, Zani write a song perhaps I could help rose cousins write a song I can, I can help her try to pull the best song out of the room and out of her heart that day. Like I love that seat in the room, where you're not the artist, and you're just the friend of the therapist, or the cheerleader or the coffee maker or whatever you are to watch that song come to life. And that's really where I found my community. That's why co writing was such a huge opening door for me. Because now when I come back, and I talked to mark about a song like, Hey, we play each other songs in the car all the time, you know, I mean, it's like, oh, we did like, would you do this? But you know what I mean? And and, and that's where I like understood myself as a musician is in the CO writing.

Chuck Clough 20:48 I'm wondering if like, I'm sure you were you're shortchanging yourself on your abilities. But if I go along with that premise, do you think that barrier for you, force you to be more of a songwriter than someone who's played covers? And that kind of stuff?

Lori McKenna Yeah, probably. So I think most of my limitations, I'm certainly for my style. And I think that's not a bad thing. Yeah, I think my limitations have create really style that brought me farther than anything that was just naturally able to do because I wasn't one of those people that I mean, I came up with Mary go Shay, like, we would end up at an open mic together. And she would be the feature. And I would you know, put my name on the list. And we kind of both stuck out like sore thumbs because we were older than everybody else there. And I learned from her like, I think when I first started, I thought, well, whatever you can just do naturally, that's what you can do. And I I knew people went to school, and I took lessons and all those things. But I just didn't realize that you can really work on your craft, and you can and I watched her grow every time I watched him make a record. She'd grown so much he had like put so much more into it. And her voice became so velvety and so perfect. And she I found where it sits and she stayed there. And then the words became, you know, more and more and more perfect. And she's such a masterful songwriter. She's like a genius. And I watched her do that. And so she was a big influence. For me in that way. like wait a minute, I have a little spot that I probably my voice policy is best into and I know what I like to write about, I'll just do that. Strangely enough. She was the one that gave him bitter town to the publisher that signed me ultimately. So it was all just a full circle thing. But I learned a ton watching her. You think someone's being the best version of themselves. And then you see them a year later. And they're it's it's an even better version.

Kristina Latino 22:40 I love that feeling. It's like you have so much love and appreciation for these friends and people you admire and absolutely, like think of them as fully formed. Yeah, and they just continue to change. That's something like as an artist manager that I really enjoy also because I feel like I've always loved being a fan of an artist and expecting them to change a lot and appreciating that. And I feel like now getting to help hopefully help more fans like be excited about that journey because everyone changes like people change songwriters change. And I feel like sometimes people can be like, I just want another like different songs but sounds exactly like first album. Yeah. And I like and it's

Lori McKenna 23:17 and the reason they want that is because it reminds them where they were in their life at that moment. You know, me like we all kind of do that to a certain extent. But that's why music is just so it's unbelievable. That's just all the places it takes you and all the everything that I've ever like, every part of my life that's grown from music, which is almost every part. It's like just been shocking to me that that gets given back so much to me that it affects my kids or it affects my husband, you know what I mean? Or we get to go somewhere that we never would have been because I'm going to go sing one song you know mean or something. It's like it's crazy.

Chuck Clough 23:54 I won't even let this certain music I want to listen to because it's my fall music. Yes, in the fall. Yeah, you guys are just emotes that Yeah. evokes that for me what it

Kristina Latino 24:06 really does, yeah, I can't listen to The National anymore because I listened to it at a time in my life. And I was like, really sad. Yeah,

Chuck Clough 24:07 I can get that too. Oh, yeah. My daughter last night went to see Thomas Rhett. And sort of like a ton of people I know

Lori McKenna 24:22 xfinity Right.

Chuck Clough 24:24 Right. And there's packed Yeah, I couldn't believe it's but my daughter was getting into country music. I cut the country pop thing. And there's like two big radio stations, if not more here in Boston, and all our friends listen to it. And it kind of came out of nowhere. For me I'm like, where How did country become such a big up in New England. I mean, just because of where I think it

Lori McKenna 24:44 is the radio stations here because we have two major radio Country radio stations here. And then we have Providence as a as a pretty big radio station as well. So my gums I live south of the city, so I can get all three of those stations on my car. But I will say when I toured with Tim and faith, the first time was 12 years ago, maybe. And even then they were like, it's crazy. I'm not sure what's happening. But the big like the craziest, most loving audiences we see are in New York, which did not have a country station up until recently in Boston, like what's going on? And I think that maybe because of XM and other ways or TV or all these things, people up here we're discovering that there's a lot of pop in country, you know, commercial Country radio now, but also I think they liked what the lyrics were saying. Were pop music was sort of maybe being more sexualized, or whatever it was doing. Country Music is sort of like when you say your daughter is listening to it, I'd be like, that's great, because, you know, I listened to pop music, too. I love pop music, my kids listen to everything. But if you still are a lyric person, and it's not just the way it makes you feel and you want to listen to a story, like you're going to find that on commercial Country radio. Well, they

Chuck Clough 26:00 definitely know. Both my daughters. They know all the lyrics. Yeah, they sing like every song that I've never even heard

Lori McKenna 26:08 Thomas Rhett is a hell of a writer. He's a damn good writer. Yeah, I promise you like he some of his songs you're just like, man that is so smart. Yes. It's really good writing

Chuck Clough 26:19 He said it was a quote last night he said this is the greatest crowd I've ever played in front of

Kristina Latino 26:26 I always whenever someone says that of course you know I see right through you

Lori McKenna 26:31 of them about it Honest to God and they're always like what's with the audience's here like they love the audience is up here. They really do great. I'm glad to represent and well

Chuck Clough 26:40 that they that they do that but I know just seemed like it just

Lori McKenna 26:44 audiences you'll see Haley tonight Hayley Witters is opening the show. And she you know, she's been with us for these this little run, and she wins you over if you don't know where she wins you over right away. She's just completely authentically herself. She's a great one. She's a great singer. She's sweetheart. And every night I hear I'm like getting putting makeup on. And I can hear like the audience just going crazy for and she's like, wow, your audiences are so nice. It's like it's not my audience. The audience is here. Yeah, you know, they're great. They really are great.

Kristina Latino 27:16 This is a real nice question, but I wanted to ask you about so I listened to the New York Times podcast, which is just like their pop music criticism podcast, and it really touches on all genres of music. emerging artists really established artists. Music tech, like it's it's really fun podcast and I was listening to an episode earlier this year. They kind of did a rundown of like songs that the New York Times critics were liking that maybe like maybe you haven't heard and and one of them was arms of a lion by Heather Morgan. Yeah. And I listened to it and loved the song. And it was only after like, you know, getting home and unplugging my phone and looking that I saw that you were on that as well. Yeah, because you sing on the song like an often when you co write songs that get cut by other artists. I feel like you don't often sing on them. But that one yet what happened to kind of bring that about?

Lori McKenna 28:07 Well, she Heather comes up to my house. She's been up several times to write and she she's written a bunch of bread, Eldred stuff. And she as you know, from that song has like, a voice from heaven. Yes, she and she's also just a sweet, sweet heart of a person. And she came, it might have been like, the summer before that record came up. And we she had that she wanted to write that song. She had that title. And I was like, Oh, good, Lord, I love that. You know what I mean? And that's one thing, like I was saying about co writing that I love so much. It's like, if somebody shows up that day, and they have like, Okay, my heart was just broken. I had this idea. And instead of it you driving the song, are you reading a title, it's like, you kind of follow the strongest emotion in the room, or the strongest and energy in the room. And that was just the two of us. So that was easy, but just sort of being the therapist, so the best friend, the sister or the mom, you know, in that in this case, and sort of helping her through that song. And I think I think she said it this in the press to like she kind of had the title for a minute. And she she kind of saved it. So I think sometimes when you write with three people, and you have an idea that that it's that vulnerable, three people might be hard, but if you know, oh, I have a couple of days was just mean in one person. And maybe you've tried on your own maybe she tried on her own to write that. But then she thought maybe she was getting too. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, but it's like a two way sometimes really good for songs that are that raw, really. And she just she just was remarkable. Now that song wouldn't be something I would cut because it's it was such a story in that moment. And so she was making that record, I have a couple of song borrowed heart, I wrote with her as well on that record. And I think she knew I could probably handle the harmony. Because it was easy enough. And I went in and saying and I was so thrilled, you know, to get to sing with her. She's just awesome person. That's so cool. I'm glad that they they put that on there. I didn't realize oh, yes. Great.

Kristina Latino 30:03 So one thing that I really love about your music is that I feel like your songs are often very grounded in in a specific place. Like there's a very strong sense of place and all of your writing, and I'm wondering where you think that comes from? Or like if that's intentional, or if it's just kind of,

Lori McKenna 30:19 you know, I didn't realize I was doing that. And I think actually it was like an interview. I did like doing interviews like it's like you learned so much about yourself. Like I didn't know I was doing that. But now that you say that I probably am. And I and someone brought it up to me. I think it was after the tree like just doing the interviews for that record because it's so family oriented. I guess I just naturally do that. Because I live in the town. I grew up in kids I went to the schools that my husband and I went to and I can walk to my dad's house and I went through that phase you know where it's like yeah, we're gonna get out of here. And then it's like oh, it's just the kids are old school you know? I mean, and I go through these ups and downs I go to these like love affair like breakups with town you know me where I'm like it like I love the people that live here. But why did they do this? You know, and all that. And it comes out a lot. I love a good town song to Machiavelli always says, Laurie, the amount of songs you've gotten out of stone, Massachusetts, it's ridiculous. Yeah, but it's but it's got they become you hope they're universal ideas that other people can apply to their places in the world. Yeah,

Kristina Latino 31:24 that's what I think is so good about it, though, is that it is based on something very specific. I think sometimes people try to write in a way that it will, they're like, I'm going to make this general so everyone can hear their or their town or their song or whatever their story in it. But sometimes you lose the ability to really connect.

Lori McKenna 31:41 And a lot of those things are there's a lot of them that are that even if we've had very different childhoods, that they will apply to all of us. Yeah, I mean, and there's a lot of those things. So it's funny, like they always say like your mind is either you know, you're either an established person or you're not. I don't know too many songwriters that are not nostalgic. I really don't. Every time I get in a room and someone's gonna write a song about my town. I'm like, that's what I'm here. I'm here you know,

Chuck Clough 32:10 have you ever worked with Mary Gauthier with Songwriting With: Soldiers?

Lori McKenna 32:14 I haven't, but I am going to okay. Yeah, I saw her at the Grammys, and it just was just so excited that that she was there and, and that record just, she's stunning. Stunning. And, and I was just so happy that you know that she for her to bring that. I think the CBS Sunday morning piece they did. Did you see that?

Chuck Clough 32:35 I saw part of it. I think I

Lori McKenna 32:38 just like it, like shook me to the core. I made me sort of I reached out to Darden after I saw Mary, I would meet up with Patty Griffin at the Ryman and Mary was there and, and I talked to her a little bit about the CBS Sunday morning piece and the writer that she's with and that piece was in a wheelchair at the time is walking now. Oh, and she's amazing. Amazing. It's it's got to be hard work. For sure. Yes, amazing work. So I went back and I there's a website, you know, you can go on and you can listen to a bunch of

Chuck Clough 33:08 Well, yeah, sure. Yeah. We talked we were talking. We also talked to Darden. And even like we were talking to Darren we talked him at Passim, and he's been doing songwriting with soldiers for a while now. 11 years and he's getting emotional. I mean, you still get he still gets very emotional when he talks about it. Yeah, it's hard work. But he certainly and Mary certainly love what they're doing there. It's an amazing project. Yeah,

Lori McKenna 33:30 I mean, I think we all love music, because we know what it can do what it does to us, like you said about sad songs. Like it's time songs you listen to when you're sad, or songs you listen to when you're happy. Like we all have those things. But when you see it that bright, as you know, a song that has transformed someone, when you write something and someone says I understand myself better from listening to that song. It's like, That's crazy. Yeah,

Chuck Clough 33:56 we got to wrap it up cuz I know you gotta get going. But what do you what would surprise people that you listened to, like a rage against the machine fan and like,

Lori McKenna 34:07 I don't think I listened to that much.I'm like a huge I'm a huge Bruce Springsteen fan andThis morning, I was watching a note video of Cindy Walker explaining you don't know me and how she wrote it. I had my back to my husband who's in the living. I was in the kitchen. I was watching Barry Dean, my friend and co writer sent me all these videos of Cindy Walker and and she starts crying and the interview and it made me start crying. And then I watched the video, a video of her singing it and he's yells and he's like, Who is that? And I'm like a Cindy Walker. And he's like, send me that link. It's just like, it's it. Like in a million years, I wouldn't have thought he would have asked me that. He didn't mean so. It's funny. Like we have everything accessible to us now and it's but you know, my husband's a guy you should really as he brings out some stuff in the stories. Oh my god, the historian, my husband, the plumber slash historian. We'll be in the pool. Like he's just throwing songs on the on the Bluetooth speaker that I'm like, What made you think of this? In the area of the 70s? You know, when he was in the backseat of his mom's car? Yeah.

Chuck Clough 35:16 Yeah. So thank you very much for sitting with us. Time and yes, I can hear you with Lyle and also mark

Lori McKenna 35:28 Johnson's and Jamie Edwards in the band. I mean, they're just amazing. They're called the My beloved Band because I really just worship them all. They're really great people. And how long is it Toronto for? One more day after today? Oh, that's it? Yeah. Oh, I do think short and sweet. We do a Texas tour like every two years and it's like four shows. No one tours Texas like bam, like four shows. Let's go

Chuck Clough 35:54 another tour after this. Is there something else happen

Lori McKenna 35:56 No I'm gonna do America fast and all that and then we're record in October, but I'm writing all the time. You know, I'm in Nashville to two, sometimes three times a month. I had shows last week and then I forgot. I'm like, I'll see you boys next week. And I'm like, Oh, I forgot. I'm two days in Nashville writing in between. It's good to be back.

Kristina Latino 36:14 Yeah, it's good. Can't wait to hear what's next. Thank you guys. Thank you very much. This is great.

Chuck Clough 36:21 We would like to thank Lori for taking the time to talk with us you can purchase her music and learn more about her at Lori McKenna.com. We would also like to thank Kerry Memorial Hall for their hospitality. Find out who was playing there next at this beautiful Hall at Carey Hall, Lexington com. Finally, we would like to thank Kristina Latino of corn escape for sitting in for Ronnie corn Escape is all about connecting people with great music. They do this by focusing on three areas artist management, live music events and their music and arts curation service. They believe that music can forge deep, powerful connections between people that music brings joy and that artists deserve careers that fulfilled both professionally and personally. You can learn more about Kristina his work at corner escape. com. Go to above the basement calm where you can sign up for our newsletter. Listen and subscribe to our podcast. Like our Facebook page. Follow us on Twitter. And look at all the nice pictures we post on Instagram. We are everywhere. On behalf of Ronnie Kristina and myself. Thanks for listening. Tell your friends and remember Boston music like its history is unique.

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